The Sandy Juan Worm -- what is the difference?

Ken Fortenberry wrote:

I didn't say a plastic worm was despicable I said it wasn't
a fly and one fly fishes with a fly. You can fish with whatever
legal device you want, but for me it isn't fly fishing unless
you're fishing with a fly.

And no, the "classic" San Juan Worm is *not* a fly either.
It all seems logical to me but I doubt you're convinced. ;-)


You're getting closer. But to draw that line in the sand
you have to come armed with a definition, it seems to me.

A) Why isn't a San Juan Worm a fly? It's made from chennile.
Denying the San Juan Worm seems extreme to me.

B) If a rubber worm isn't a fly, is it because of the platic?
Does that mean any fly that contains plastic is not a fly?
Or is it OK to use some amount of plastic, as long as
long as feathers are also used? Flashback Nymphs are OK,
but the Latex Caddis is not, unless it is (phew) tied with
some minimum threshold amount of Peacock Herl?

Defining what is and what isn't a fly is black hole problem
for which there is no workable solution. The only reasonable
answer is fish with what you like to fish with.........and to
refrain from Falwellian pronouncements about moral purity.
Let he who is without sin cast the first lure.
;-)

"rw" wrote ...

[...]

Cutting through the crap, the ultimate object of the exercise is to catch
fish.

A matter of opinion, IMO. Sure catching fish is nice, but for me, the
ultimate object is a nice day on the river with am evening in camp
afterwards.

Dan

sandy wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
I didn't say a plastic worm was despicable I said it wasn't
a fly and one fly fishes with a fly. You can fish with whatever
legal device you want, but for me it isn't fly fishing unless
you're fishing with a fly.

And no, the "classic" San Juan Worm is *not* a fly either.
It all seems logical to me but I doubt you're convinced. ;-)

You're getting closer. But to draw that line in the sand
you have to come armed with a definition, it seems to me.

I agree and my definition of a fly is fur and feathers wrapped
on a hook imitating a fish, an aquatic insect or a terrestrial
insect sometimes found in or near the water. A hopper qualifies,
a worm does not.

A) Why isn't a San Juan Worm a fly?

Why isn't a goldfish a canary ?

snip
Defining what is and what isn't a fly is black hole problem
for which there is no workable solution.

Horsepucky. My solution works perfectly well for me.

The only reasonable
answer is fish with what you like to fish with.........and to
refrain from Falwellian pronouncements about moral purity.
Let he who is without sin cast the first lure.
;-)

Yep, you can fish with any legal contraption you want but for
me it ain't fly fishing unless I'm using a fly. If that's moral
purity, why I'm just as pure as the driven snow. ;-)

--
Ken Fortenberry

On May 21, 8:02 am, Ken Fortenberry
wrote:

I agree and my definition of a fly is fur and feathers wrapped
on a hook imitating a fish, an aquatic insect or a terrestrial
insect sometimes found in or near the water. A hopper qualifies,
a worm does not.

So Leeches are out too (not a fish, aquatic insect or terrestrial).
Spiders would be off limits too, egg flies and all attractors.

The real point (well, this whole exersize is rapidly becoming
pointless)
but if there is a point to be made here, it is to recongnize the
difference
between:

a) I wouldn't fish with a worm, because it isn't what I like to do.

and

b) I know the definition of fly fishing better than you do.
My way is the one true way. This, right here, is the line in
the sand, defined by me, across which you lose your identity
as a fly fisherman. That's right wing fishing.

On Mon, 21 May 2007 01:03:11 +0100, "Niteawk"
wrote:

A fly is a type of insect, titting up a piece of plastic with a feather
makes it a piece of feathered plastic.
Any of that crap you fly fishers (me inc) call flies are not flies at all,
we have all been conned.

A fly is an insect, correct, and we tie things to mimic these insects.
Any caddis tie or mayfly tie is mimicing a legitimate fly.
A streamer is a legitimate fly, but it mimics a fish, but not an
insect. Don't get me wrong; I wouldn't use a plastic worm in fly
fishing only water because I don't believe it is a fly. However, if
you gussy it up with herl and hackle, the *law* might approve of it.
That's all I'm saying. d;o)

On Mon, 21 May 2007 13:28:23 GMT, "Daniel-San"
(Rot13) wrote:

A matter of opinion, IMO. Sure catching fish is nice, but for me, the
ultimate object is a nice day on the river with am evening in camp
afterwards.

With a fire in the fireplace, a nice single malt, a belly filled with
fine food, and a friend or two to tell some lies to.

salmobytes wrote:
Ken Fortenberry wrote:
I agree and my definition of a fly is fur and feathers wrapped
on a hook imitating a fish, an aquatic insect or a terrestrial
insect sometimes found in or near the water. A hopper qualifies,
a worm does not.

So Leeches are out too (not a fish, aquatic insect or terrestrial).
Spiders would be off limits too, egg flies and all attractors.

Spiders and leeches are OK, crawdads too but I won't use glo-bugs.

The real point (well, this whole exersize is rapidly becoming
pointless)
but if there is a point to be made here, it is to recongnize the
difference
between:

a) I wouldn't fish with a worm, because it isn't what I like to do.

and

b) I know the definition of fly fishing better than you do.
My way is the one true way.

I know Ken Fortenberry's definition of fly fishing better than
you do, indeed I know it better than anyone else in the world.
My way is the one true way *for me*. I couldn't care less what
anyone else does with their fly rod and I don't expect anyone
else to much care what I do with mine.

This, right here, is the line in
the sand, defined by me, across which you lose your identity
as a fly fisherman. That's right wing fishing.

LOL !! Gawd, I *hate* when that happens. I mean, where in the
hell could I have mislaid my fly fishing identity this time ?
And will I find it in time to go fishing next week ? ;-)

--
Ken Fortenberry

When the lady at the cocktail party asked Hugh Masakela to say
something in 'African' he replied "Uga buga lady. Uga Buga."
I think that applies to us both at this point. I declare this thread
dead--for me anyway.

I will, no doubt, try to gross every body out again someday soon.
Trolling with rubber worms and homemade wigglers always seems to work.
:-)

"Dave LaCourse" wrote in message
...

A fly is an insect, correct, and we tie things to mimic these insects.
Any caddis tie or mayfly tie is mimicing a legitimate fly.
A streamer is a legitimate fly, but it mimics a fish, but not an
insect. Don't get me wrong; I wouldn't use a plastic worm in fly
fishing only water because I don't believe it is a fly. However, if
you gussy it up with herl and hackle, the *law* might approve of it.
That's all I'm saying. d;o)



IMO the method used to cast the bait, fly or lure is what determines the
type of fishing you are doing, for eg fly rod, fly line and center pin reel
= game fishing. As opposed to boat rod, multiplier reel, I/2 ton of lead,
wire trace = sea fishing.

sandy wrote:
Ok, here's the question: what is the significant difference,
between a San Juan Worm and a Sandy Juan Worm?

The context appears below the photo:

http://montana-riverboats.com/Pages/...rms/index.html

I've been a long time lurker but I think I have something to contribute
to this thread. I would argue that fly fishing is defined by the rod
and flyline. These are definitely unique. Anything that you cast with
a fly rod/line constitutes flyfishing. I might add the style of reel
and how one manipulates the line when playing a fish also contributes to
the definition of "fly fishing". Conversely, hanging a "fly" of a
spherical red and white bobber which you "chuck" with a spin cast rig is
definitely NOT fly fishing. You might add to this by suggesting that
the thing on the end of the line has to be hand made by the fisherman
but in my mind, that's a weak and distant second argument.
Steve